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Wouter van Vugt

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How I voted for the Open XML ISO

Now that the votes are tallied, the spinoff begins. So I think it will be best I voice my opinion on this day before others do it for me. I've already seen the first press releases only minutes after walking out the door of the conference room, so I'll probably be to late anyway.

Before going into how I voted, I would first like to sketch the atmosphere of this day. While everyone can still enjoy each-others company, I have many questions surrounding the motives and tactics of other members. It was quite a political day, and there is a lot to be political about.
There is difficulty in the difference in opinion on how the ISO process functions. What are the options again? Is it 'disapprove' or is that actually a 'conditional approve'? Can we abstain and then later approve / disapprove? How about the maximum number of disapprove votes? If there are too many of them, the BRM might not continue according to the ISO rules. Of course people say the BRM will always go through, but then again, that's what being said now. Can you trust parties who have vested interest in ODF, or have a campaign against Open XML bordering slander? Are known to influence ISO voting countries, or are suing countries where the ISO vote didn't go as planned? Or the fact that during our last meeting it was repeatedly made clear that a vote that would result in Open XML becoming an ISO standard was highly unfavorable for some, and would have no chance of succeeding. It even got down to some people having two separate sets of comments, one for the disapprove vote, one for the abstain vote, this to ensure that the news surrounding Open XML would always get negative for Microsoft.

The first thing one of us tried to do was keep in touch with the overall process, which was really great since it's easy to go back to name-calling and saying that the tag name 'paragraph' is much cooler than 'p', a level we need to rise above to be productive. So the process of the Dutch committee would be to first go through the comments and get to those that we agree upon, and their wording of course. Next these comments could be tied to the vote still to come.

During the first voting round it became clear that we had a few who where all for Open XML and would vote approve, their feeling was that the technical comments were not heavy enough to allow a DISAPPROVE to go through which I fully agree on. Obviously there were a few who didn't see it that way. I voted an APPROVE here.
Since we couldn't get to a consensus, the final round of discussion of the comments needed to start. Since we as a committee have one voice, we also have to reach consensus on the comments we put in to that vote as well, be it an approve vote, abstain, or disapprove. So, the interesting chore begins of re-iterating the comments people hand copy-pasted of grokdoc. The great thing about this part of the process is that we were actually capable of reaching a set of comments that we all agreed on. These comments were not tied to the voting procedure just yet. They were just the areas we agreed on the need to improve. One thing is the code-origin-part I blogged about, or an improvement for storing the backward compatibility items in a way more suitable for cross-application documents. Printer-settings were addressed on which there was consensus on advising to move towards XML in that area as well (printer-settings lie outside of the spec, and hence you cannot demand anything there, ODF doesn't as well, I believe the group agreed on this) We had a number of other greatly useful things to add to the spec, and personally I hope that the effort we put in will not be lost.

Next of course comes the part where we need to move to a general vote, and my stance on this was more nuanced. The difficulty is that the entire process revolved around people trusting each other, which is obviously difficult given the Microsoft, Sun, IBM love triangle J. Those opposing Open XML do not trust that their comments will actually be addressed when we approve Open XML (something the ECMA has stated to always do, even in ABSTAINS). Personally I feel the APPROVE is the right thing to do given the lightness of our comments and the precedent of other document formats missing huge interoperability parts which was given the go-ahead. Those for Open XML do not trust that casting a 'conditional-approve' will be interpreted as such. A 'conditonal-approve' is still a DISAPPROVE in my book, and the slides demonstrated before the meeting started also noted that there will be no BRM or Open XML ISO standard if more than I believe 1/4th of the votes are a DISAPPROVE. The difficulty is not this initial vote, but the unclearness of ISO in the allowed moves when the BRM takes place. The delegation going to ISO is rather powerful. They have to see whether the comments were addressed properly and the move from DISAPPROVE to APPROVE, but can you be sure this will happen? Personally

So all in all, it totally sucks. You cannot reach a conclusive and useful vote if there is no trust between parties. I feel that some people have much to do with that feeling of untrustworthiness given their campaign and open statements of wanting to block Open XML no matter what. Also on the other side, people are probably worried that Microsoft will act like Microsoft acted a decade or two ago. Think about HTML for instance, which didn't improve much with Internet Explorer and the standards support in that tool.

If someone says that they want to block Open XML no matter what, and then they will allow a 'conditional-approve' (a DISAPPROVE) by removing most of their comments, wouldn't you distrust their motives and feel that their current explanation of DISAPPROVE will be changed after the initial vote?

My stance on the second voting round was to allow a 'conditional-approve', while I had some distrust myself, I felt that this would open the process and allow the BRM to continue. I made very clear that I would only want this if:

  • The entire committee would go out to the press and clearly state that we have conditionally approved Open XML, and there will be no spin on this
  • The comments we had consensus on, and the requirements for their repair, would be made public clearly and openly
  • The unreasonable comments would be dropped (duplicates ODF, etc…)

This second vote also didn't reach consensus. There was not enough trust that a conditional approval would be explained as such later on in the process. While I personally do not have that mistrust, I do understand it.

Next was the vote on whether to take the comments we had consensus on, and send them with the ABSTAIN vote. What I find rather amazing, is that also this very viable option (the comments at least reach ISO through official channels) was blocked. All of a sudden all comments were necessary for that to happen. Personally I don't understand this stance, and can only describe it as a political move. They seem to have no interest in getting the comments to ISO to improve Open XML (some clearly state that this is an outcome not in their books, no matter what), but they do have interest in that DISAPPROVE vote, given the amount of steering towards this result going on.

Now this is obviously going into the media, as one party blocking a vote and I feel that this is really wrong. Before the second vote I had enough trust in the other parties at the table that I felt it was possible to get to ISO Open XML using a conditional approve, lulled by the people around the table. But the next vote on the ABSTAIN has made me wondering about the motives. By not allowing comments to be passed to ISO in the ABSTAIN I clearly feel that there was a strategy of moving towards a DISAPPROVE in 'conditional-approve' clothes. I was seduced, and now that I am back home I am glad that this DISAPPROVE didn't happen. Clearly there was a tactic to be played for the DISAPPROVE votes, and I feel they almost had us, but luckily not quite due to the differences of opinion.

So the end result? An ABSTAIN without comments, the lowest of the low.

Published Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:54 AM by wouterv

Comments

 

Rob Weemhoff (IBM Rep) said:

Sigh, deep sigh...
August 20, 2007 8:21 PM
 

willemm said:

Just read the news on tweakers. I think this is bad news. But I think the whole process is a difficult one, so it doesn't completely surprise me.
August 21, 2007 7:55 AM
 

Andy said:

"So all in all, it totally sucks. You cannot reach a conclusive and useful vote if there is no trust between parties. I feel that some people have much to do with that feeling of untrustworthiness given their campaign and open statements of wanting to block Open XML no matter what. Also on the other side, people are probably worried that Microsoft will act like Microsoft acted a decade or two ago" Yes, but you forgot that they played these tricks on their own business partners and customers. Anti-competive behaviour was the very essence of their business model. It is like saying: "We like the Mafia as long as they do not kill so much and they go to charity dinners." You said 20 years ago? They didn't learn their lesson, Look how they act on the EU level in the antitrust case. No diplomatic remark from the Kroes administration was considered. Microsoft's PR was as arogant as you could be and they played every stupid trick. It can be the black knight attitude but I am sure their corporate autism is rooted in their busines culture. They really don't understand that what they do was wrong as a mafia killer does his business and does not feel "guilty". They seem to think that Kroes is a crazy politician who does not like Microsoft and plays legal games. You said 20 years ago. This is not 20 years ago: http://antitrust.slated.org/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/3000/PX03078.pdf Same now: The purpose of standard review got perverted. In a standard review process you review the standard, you file comments and the interested party resoves them. IBM did it pretty well. But Microsoft runs an "ignore bugs" campaign. You didn't hear any constructive proposals for improvement or clarifications. A company that ruined its public reputation shouldn't cry that nobody trusts them. ".., or have a campaign against Open XML bordering slander? " Run by a party that does not forgive the MS Denmark Eurocouncil vote scam btw. It was Microsoft that fought against interoperability provisions, weakened open standard definitions and so on. And a party that can be trusted and speaks frankly.
August 22, 2007 1:25 AM
 

hAl said:

[quote]You didn't hear any constructive proposals for improvement or clarifications.[/quote] That is because that is something which is supposed to be done together with an ISO appointed editor after all comments from the ballot procedure are in. However commentment about ANY comments made trough the ISO process is already made by Ecma. [url]http://blogs.msdn.com/jasonmatusow/archive/2007/08/21/ecma-tc-45-will-review-all-comments.aspx[/url]
August 22, 2007 2:33 PM
 

wouterv said:

I think it's wise if I refrain from commenting :)

August 22, 2007 2:59 PM
 

Bart Gunneman said:

disappointing to say the least... :(
August 25, 2007 2:17 PM
 

Johan said:

I am a software systems designer, and I can tell you that this (the OOXML specification document) is not a bases you can build an application on. The specification is incomplete to say the least. The goal of backwards compatibility is not reachable unless the specification matches the binary (word document) format exactly, and when the working of each bit is explained in full. When this inner working will not be disclosed, make this explicit. The two attributes, Secret, and Standard are mutually exclusive; Standardization equals Openess. Standardization is a very important tool for progress, not only technical, but also social. Perversion of the standardization process is a very sad development. How can the politics at a standards comittee become so perverted that the outcome of voting in so many countries is no longer based on technical merits of the standard.
August 28, 2007 11:59 PM
 

Pieter said:

You voted Approve on the first round, meaning you don't even listen or adhere to the many comments there are on the proposed OOXML standard. In the end you voted Abstain, simply because you didn't want to vote "Approve with comments"? Again, this gives me the feeling you don't want to listen to the (many) problems there are surrounding Microsofts OOXML standard as they have proposed it. By voting Approve with Comments, you'd at least force Microsoft to take a good, long, hard look at their standard and the comments there are surrounding it. What surprises me even more is that you have serious doubts about what is being done with the outcome of the vote ("There is difficulty in the difference in opinion on how the ISO process functions. What are the options again?"). If you do, why be a part of that committee then? Do you have to because your boss told you to? Or are you simply too afraid to miss out on anything if you aren't a member? Either way, MS has created an atmosphere (not just in the Dutch committee, but in committees around the world) that simply boils down to: "if you're not with us, you're against us". As a result the pros and cons of OOXML have dug their heels deep into the ground, firmly convinced of ones own opinions, closing eyes and ears to (relevant) opponents arguments.
August 29, 2007 1:56 AM
 

Carl said:

Let's be fair. Why do we NEED OOXML in the first place? MS did their best to pervert HTML, but thank God the strategists at MS ignored the Internet until it hit them right between the eyes, and things were more or less settled by then. Of course, the pervasive presence of Internet Explorer and related products such as Frontpage are still causing major interoperability issues. This is 100% due to MS tactics. Now, please give me ONE good reason why OOXML has been presented as a standard, other than MS corporate interest. If MS really wanted to be a reliable party, they would contribute to and adopt ODF. Instead they are steering towards another schism in document formatting. That sucks!
September 4, 2007 8:54 AM
 

wouterv said:

@ Carl

ok, here is one that is quite obvious to me.

It will better enable me to build solutions that my customers demand. There is a big need for the things that Open XML provides as a standard, accessibility, digital signatures, extensibility, formulas, etc..

September 7, 2007 8:59 PM
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